We’re back again with more Moria listbuilding content, continuing our deep dive into when and when not to field the various models in the faction. This time we’re focussing on the Captains and Captain-equivalents available to Moria: the humble Goblin Captain, their jumped up Blackshield cousins, and the indomitable duo of Groblog and Durburz. 3 of these have distinct roles within the army, and the fourth one also exists. Without further ado, let’s dive into…
Moria Goblin Captain
These guys are the gold standard of Captains, to my mind. This isn’t because they’re especially good in any real way, because they’re clearly not. As far as Captains go, they’re pretty awful, with the same Fight, Defence and Courage values as a basic Warrior of Minas Tirith. But you frankly don’t care, because they’re some of the most efficient sources of Might and warband slots in the whole game. Bringing along a Captain and a dozen friends will set you back less than 100 points, which is a critical component in letting you fit in the numbers you need. They bring March, which is often excellent, and they can do a decent job of killing basic warriors too.
As far as wargear selection goes, I tend to default to ‘absolutely nothing’. You just don’t really need it, and it’s almost never going to be worth the points over an extra Goblin. A shield makes you a bit more resilient against S3 enemies, but generally Goblin Captains exist in a binary state of ‘happily alive’ or ‘faced an enemy hero and were instantly slaughtered’. The shield doesn’t really do much to prevent that latter situation, so probably just don’t bother. A bow is a decent shout in Assault on Lothlorien, but again probably only if you’re out of warband slots. An effectively-S4 bow with Might behind it is nice, but only hitting on 5’s means you generally won’t accomplish anything of value. At least an extra Goblin requires the enemy to put effort into killing it.
As far as when to include these guys, my general approach is to slot them in whenever you want more warband slots than you’d get from the other heroes you want to include. You’re sometimes actively interested in March or the extra two Might points, but generally these Captains are just the default options you take if you don’t want to bring anything else in particular. Given that Moria players normally want to include lots of models, that’s a perfectly fine spot for these guys to sit, and means they fit into lots of lists automatically.
That’s in pretty sharp contrast to…
Moria Blackshield Captain
These guys are sometimes called the worst heroes in the game, and I think that’s quite unfair. There’s no universe in which Blackshield Captains are as bad as a lot of the Ruffian/Hobbit heroes, or Barliman Butterbur for that matter. They’re not even too overpriced, unlike their warrior equivalents: they gain D6, C4 and Hatred (Dwarves) over their basic Captain equivalents, and those upgrades are moderately relevant and arguably worth 10 points.
The problem, of course, is that they forgot to bring their hand weapon option. That leaves them perpetually sitting on -1 to win the fight, which is almost always going to be decreasing their effective durability and their odds of killing stuff. There is admittedly an exception to that, which is when you’ve got lots of models into a durable enemy model. In those circumstances, a bit of extra killing power could be quite worthwhile, especially if that durable model is a Dwarf of some variety.
Unfortunately, in Moria lists this is a bit of an answer in search of a problem. If you’re looking for help killing outnumbered models then Prowlers are right there, and also bring F3 and throwing weapons as well. I can’t really think of a single situation in which you’d be better off upgrading a normal Captain to a Blackshield instead of upgrading 5 Goblins to Prowlers, even in lists where Prowlers aren’t optimal (see this post for more on that). Moria is a faction with dozens of answers to tough models, from big monsters to Prowlers to Warg Marauders or Venomback Spiders, and literally all of them are better than a Blackshield Captain.
Blackshield Captains aren’t really that bad, and if you want to field one then you probably won’t hate it. They’re ultimately just a Captain that’s slightly overpriced, and they’ll do Captain things just fine if you bring them. But from a strictly competitive point of view, should you ever take one over a Goblin Captain? …Nah. Just don’t bother.
Groblog
Groblog, on the other hand, is definitely bringing some value. For 15 points more than a Goblin Captain (i.e. 3 extra models), he gains D6, an extra Might point, Strike/Defence instead of March, and the Mithril Crown. That’s very solid value, and he ends up getting the Crown (a 50/50 chance of a 3” aura of +1 Fight for Goblins) basically for free. That’s obviously pretty great, and you’re never really going to be sad you brought Groblog along. Certainly, the comparison to the Blackshield Captain is absurdly harsh for the Blackshield.
In saying all that, the owner of Moria’s best ‘heroic rock’ has come down in value a lot recently, largely for reasons outside the profile itself. This is basically rooted in the classic dichotomy of Moria listbuilding: lists are either investing lots of points into monsters, or they’re a horde. If they’re in the former category, then numbers are likely pretty tight. If you’ve brought a Dragon, or the Watcher and an allied Spider Queen, or a couple of Cave Drakes, then Groblog may be less valuable than a Captain and 3 extra Goblins. Those lists also care more about losing a few extra Goblins to shooting, so Heroic March is more consistently valuable there.
On the flipside, Goblin hordes love Groblog. They have lots of models that benefit from him, and they’re much more reliant on their Goblins to actually do damage.That’s particularly true because they’re generally going to be running some Prowlers, which are the biggest beneficiaries of the Mithril Crown. F3 going to F4 (or F4 to F5 against Trapped opponents) is much more relevant than F2 going to F3, so Prowlers care a lot more about Groblog than ordinary Goblins do.
The challenge here is that Assault on Lothlorien exists, and it can’t take Groblog. And realistically, that LL just adds so much to a Goblin horde that it’s almost always going to be better than running pure. Turns out that adding permanent Clash by Moonlight rules and +1 to wound from outnumbering is pretty good, and almost categorically better than some Fight value shenanigans. So you end up in a weird situation where Groblog is excellent value for horde Moria lists, but those lists are generally best off running as a LL that can’t include him.
In saying that, if you did want to run a Goblin horde and not bring along Assault on Lothlorien, then Groblog is basically an auto-include. And even for a monster-focussed Moria list, there will be times when he’s still a good choice. This is particularly likely where you already have a Captain in the list, or where you don’t have enough warband slots to take advantage of the Captain’s cheaper price tag. In those circumstances, Groblog is going to slot in excellently with some extra Might, Heroic Defence to slow down enemy heroes, and the occasional boost to your Goblins. Ultimately, that’s probably his best use-case these days, which is somewhat unfortunate for such an efficient model.
Speaking of strange use-cases…
Durburz, Goblin King of Moria
I’m just gonna say it: I don’t like Durburz, and I think he’s overpriced. If I didn’t have to include him, I never would, and I think he suffers in comparison to most every alternative option.
That all potentially comes across as a bit harsh, because Durburz does bring some useful things. Relative to Groblog, he’s paying 20 points to get F4, C4, one Will and Fate, Heroic Resolve and a 12” Stand Fast instead of the Mithril Crown. On face value that seems like a decent amount of value, but once you dig in things look a bit less positive. The extra Fight value seems useful at first glance, but Durburz is still too fragile for you to want him on the frontlines anyway. Heroic Resolve is obviously pretty niche, and the extra Courage and Will is heavily reduced in value by the fact that you normally bring a Shaman in Goblin-heavy armies. The Will is still useful against enemy casters, but overall you’re paying for a lot of stats you’re not using very much. The 12” Stand Fast is legitimately useful, but in Goblin-heavy builds it’s likely to be worse than the Mithril Crown (because, again, you should have a Shaman) and in monster-mash builds you likely don’t need it very much.
Similarly, while Durburz brings a lot of things you can’t get from a pair of Goblin Captains, he’s also bringing less warband slots and Might for the same price. Moreover, he’s also bringing a lot less effective combat power. That’s because he’s generally going to be your leader, and you don’t really want your (fragile, not-particularly-competent) Army Leader in combat against most opponents. If you have two Captains, on the other hand, then one can hang out behind your lines safely while the other goes in and brawls against enemy warriors. You also get two 6” Stand Fasts, which will often be better than one 12” Stand Fast in practice, even if it theoretically covers less ground.
In general, Durburz fits in the annoying middle ground for Army Leaders, where he’s too fragile and weak to be worthwhile risking on the frontlines in most games, while being substantially more expensive than the cheaper hero options. Having played him a lot, he almost always ends up feeling like wasted points, and like a Goblin Captain would probably have done about the same job (or like Groblog would have done a better job overall).
A few more comparisons to make it clear quite how unappealing Durburz is: he’s the same price as the Mouth of Sauron, who brings some solid magic and F5; he’s 20 points more than Fimbul, who brings mobility, a bow and F5; he’s the same price as Gorulf Ironskin, which is a comparison so lopsided it hurts; and a mere 30 points extra gets you Suladan, who is vastly better in every way and also has a 6” banner. Durburz is not just bringing things you don’t really need, he’s bringing them in a package that’s a little on the pricey side for what it does.
So we’ve extensively covered why you wouldn’t field Durburz, yet I’ve just said I take him all the time. Given that my tolerance for inefficiency in lists is pretty low, this seems like a bit of a contradiction. The answer for why Durburz is regularly fitting into lists is he’s the cheapest Hero of Valour in the Moria list by at least 180 points, so if you want to ally something into your Moria list then he’s generally essential. In those circumstances, the fact that Durburz is a little inefficient is (hopefully) made up for by the improved efficiency of whatever you’re allying in. My Watcher in the Water 600-point list, for example, takes Durburz in order to bring the ludicrously-undercosted Spider Queen, treating him as a necessary ‘tax’ to ally in a model that solves a lot of the list’s problems.
Allied lists are also one of the best places for Durburz anyway, as you probably aren’t fitting in a Shaman and would appreciate a more durable and courageous leader to preserve those VPs. In general, Moria lists that are fielding lots of Goblins but can’t fit in a Shaman for whatever reason are probably the ideal situation for Durburz. But given that it’s only ten more points to bring a Captain and a Shaman, Durburz is only very rarely going to be a good option. Much, much more often he’s just going to be the tax you pay to ally in better models. That’s not the end of the world, but it’s not great either.
So overall, we’re left with a pretty clear set of guidelines for the Moria Captain-equivalents. Default to Goblin Captains for all your warband slot/Might needs, normally running them barebones. Upgrade one to Groblog where you’re fielding lots of Goblins and aren’t running Assault on Lothlorien (while considering carefully why you’re making that probably-incorrect choice), or sometimes in monster-mash builds. Skip right past the Blackshield Captain option, and bring Durburz as your compulsory Hero of Valour when you’re taking allies. It’s unfortunate that the balance here isn’t amazing, but them’s the breaks. Nothing here is heinously overpriced, but various factors mean that ultimately you’ll almost always be taking the basic Goblin Captain. At least they’re easy to convert!
I hope you enjoyed this analysis of the Captain-level choices available to Moria forces. Next time we’ll be continuing this series with the hero-killing options available to Moria. What’s better, Shattering Anduril or swarming Aragorn with Bats? The answer, as I’m sure you’d expect, is ‘it depends’.
Until next time, may your Durburz never feel like too much of a tax!
A great write-up - though I do feel like there's value in Blackshield Captains. Yes, he has a two-handed weapon - if he's got a banner reroll from a drum (not hard to get), he'll have 3 dice that suffer a -1. If you manage his match-ups so he's up against 2 enemy dice, he has a 70% chance of getting a 4+ and a 40% chance of getting a 5+ - and this gets better if he's got a spear-supporter (who isn't going to suffer a -1 penalty). While the enemy is quite likely to get a 4+ (75%), his Might does wonders for you, able to get a 6 when you need it. While a -1 penalty to your dice is bad, the +1 that you get means that this guy can crack through most everything (like you said). The boosted Courage is also really nice if a drum is beating (he becomes C5), especially if he's drifted away from a Balrog or Shaman and actually needs to use his Courage value for Stand Fasts. This guy doesn't look good at first, but he's far cheaper than a Cave Troll or a Dweller and packs in quite the punch. Oh, and he can lead guys - perhaps I need to field him in a very competitive setting to try to change people's minds. :)
ReplyDeleteI don't really disagree with any of that per se: you can definitely win fights with the Blackshield, and he can definitely kill stuff. But I don't really see what you are accomplishing there that an ordinary Captain couldn't also do. Blackshields can win fights if well-supported, but Goblin Captains have a much easier time of it. And if the Blackshield is burning Might to win combats (probably not an unlikely occurrence) then those are Might points that the Goblin Captain can use to boost wound rolls for kills instead. Unless you have heaps of supporting dice to win the fight then the two-handed weapon is unlikely to be producing better results than going one-handed and burning Might to wound, and frankly I have never found Moria to struggle with killing heavily-outnumbered warriors. As mentioned, if your local meta is full of tough models that might survive being trapped by a Captain and several warriors, then bring Prowlers and the problem is solved. At least in my view, that just seems like a better option for basically every list.
DeleteI do agree about the Courage value, that's a legitimate benefit that is probably worth about 5 points here, at least in armies that don't have a Shaman or the Balrog. And as you say, it will sometimes be worthwhile in those armies anyway. The D6 is also occasionally useful, although not relevant against the heroes that normally end up killing Captains.
The challenge with taking the Blackshield to a tournament is that he'll probably do a perfectly adequate job and won't really impact your performance at all. He's a Captain and will let you bring 12 models, March, call Moves and kill a couple of guys. He may or may not kill those couple enemies less efficiently than a Goblin Captain, and there would be a weird phantom pair of Goblins that could have been in your army if not for him, but he'll still basically just feel like a Captain. It's a difficulty of small sample sizes, that we'll never really be able to do enough tests to be sure if the small drop in efficiency I'm positing empirically exists.
And to be clear, I am saying it's only a small drop. The Blackshield Captain is perfectly fine, and will never be a total waste of points. My argument is that he'll never be a better use of points than a basic Captain though, even if he's always at least adequate.
Don't play much with Moria, and when I do I just use monsters, but a bit of pushback on the choice not to give shields to a captain: for 5pts you can add +2 dice in a duel, and that's better value than any single goblin. Add onto this that S3 archery (like Legolas) can't snipe your Might Points as easily (half as likely), and I think it's a good upgrade.
ReplyDeleteThose are legitimate uses, but I'd question how much they really come up. Goblin Captains are pretty expendable, so the only time you're really likely to be shielding is when you're up against some big hero. And ultimately, 9 times out of 10 they will just win the fight anyway and kill you. Once in a blue moon you'll win the fight or force a Might point because of those extra two dice, but you're also giving up the once every second blue moon when you would have won the fight without shielding and now get to make strikes against the hero's horse.
DeleteSimilarly, Elven archery is a lot scarier to a Captain without a shield. But unless that Captain is your leader (which is generally unlikely, albeit possible in some monster-heavy builds) then there are probably some significantly better targets for that shooting. Shamans are just as fragile and more valuable, Spiders and Bats are easier to wound and often similar points per wound, and many of Moria's monsters are surprisingly concerned about archery. Certainly I've never found my Goblin Captains to be catching many arrows, although admittedly I do see that it could be possible in some builds.