Jay Clare recently posted a great couple of articles setting
out his list of the top 10 Slayers of Middle Earth, for Good and Evil. Obviously
this produced an enormous amount of discussion, because there is nothing more likely
to inflame nerd debate than posting a relatively subjective list. Included in
this discussion were several excellent articles from TMAT, which did a great
job of stepping away from the subjectivity and trying to make it more of an
objective discussion. This is useful for a number of reasons, most obviously
because it allows us to discuss the topic in more depth than merely saying ‘I
think Treebeard is better than Gwahir’ (which, incidentally, he is not).
However, I think there were a few abstractions in their modelling where they,
for the sake of reducing weight of calculations, sacrificed accurate depiction
of the qualities of a character. While obviously that is totally legitimate and
almost inevitable— we are producing MESBG content for fun, after all— I
wanted to try and address some of these issues. So, of course, I made a
spreadsheet from a base of Jeremy Hunthor’s LoTR Macros, and wrote an extremely
long article on it.
My eventual approach was heavily inspired by that of
Tiberius and Rythbryt. I split the issue into six categories, largely following
those they used: Troop-Slaying, Hero-Slaying, Durability, Mobility, Buffs and
Cost. I left out Impact because I felt it was a little subjective and often
just gimme points for dedicated duellists, although I tried to include a number
of miscellany that had fallen within it in my other categories. Every model
received a score from 1-10 for each category, through a laborious process I
will outline below, then I averaged these with a slight weighting towards the
Troop-Slaying and Hero-Slaying categories. Specifically, the maths was setup so
that a point in any of the other four categories was worth ¾ as much as a point
for ‘killing stuff good’. This allowed me to accord due importance to all of
the factors that go into making a hero a good Slayer, while still placing
special emphasis on the ones that directly relate to dealing out death. I will
say that this weighting is an almost entirely subjective question, and if
you’re going to disagree with anything from this article (which… you probably
will), start there. However, to my mind it gave me a good structure for integrating
all of a character’s Slayer credentials. Now I just needed to work out how I
was going to give them scores in these categories.
For Troop-Slaying, I was heavily inspired by Tiberius’ model
of looking at the average Wounds the characters would deal to a group of three
Uruk-hai Scouts. However, it suffered somewhat from having D5 enemies, which,
when put next to the test for Hero-Slaying (Wounding Shagrat, a D7 model) meant
that S5 heroes received a disproportionate bonus. To fix this I could have
tested against both Uruk Scouts and Uruk Warriors and averaged the results, so
that the advantage of S5 was more accurately proportioned. However, this would
have taken my spreadsheet to 21 sheets worth of data, which was just a little
too much for me. So instead I had our contestants take on D6 Uruk-hai Warriors
for Troop-Killing and D7 Shagrat for Hero-Killing. This basically means that S4
heroes will have slightly inflated score for the former category and slightly
deflated ones for the latter (and vice-versa for S5 heroes), which should
hopefully balance out overall.
The bigger issue with Tiberius’ model was that cavalry
heroes were assumed to get their charge bonuses every turn. As he found, this
gave them a massive edge; one which I felt was unreflective of their actual
performance. To fix this, I ran every scenario twice, once with charge bonuses
and once without, and averaged the two. This basically assumes that our mounted
heroes will get their charge bonus every second turn, which seems fair to me.
They probably charge more often than that, but they can also be counter-charged
by enemy cavalry or lose their mount, so it seemed a decent depiction of what
would happen in a real game.
Finally, I wanted to include the complex but powerful bonus
that is getting free Heroic Combats. I dealt with these heroes in a different
way: I assumed that they were able to take on a pair of Uruks and then, if they
killed them both, charge on into several more. Therefore, I was able to
multiply the average number of Wounds they dealt by (1 + P(killing both Uruks
in first combat)). This model is definitely an abstraction, and it makes some
generous assumptions about the combats the hero ends up in. However, this is
somewhat balanced out by the lack of guaranteed charge bonus on the second
combat, so it probably ends up fairly reasonable all told. I’m still not happy
with this, but it was the best way I could find to model this really important
special rule. If anyone has any suggestions, I’d love to hear them, because this felt like the biggest abstraction of the model. Other
special rules were either ignored (where irrelevant), incorporated into the
spreadsheet (where possible) or added on as modifiers to the final score. This
score was found by multiplying the average number of Uruk kills by 2.5 and then
rounding to the nearest multiple of 0.25, before being modified by any other
relevant factors as discussed for each contestant. This produced figures
between 0 and 10— perfect.
Hero-Slaying proceeded in basically the same way, with the
characters taking on Shagrat and their expected Wounds being calculated. Again,
I averaged for charging and being charged, but this time there was a new
problem in play. Shagrat would likely call a Heroic Strike in these
circumstances, as would our contestants. Tiberius modelled this by just adding
4 to both Fight values, but that ended up meaning that a F6 hero always had the
edge against Shagrat, and Elven-made weapons or F7+ were totally irrelevant. To
fix this, I bit the bullet and modelled three scenarios: one where Shagrat
Struck up to the higher Fight, one where the contestant did, and one where they
drew. These were then averaged, with a weighting applied to match the
probability of each one occurring. This laborious process meant that for every
Hero-Slaying score I needed to run six scenarios, because our contestant
would have charged in half of those and been charged in the other half. Thankfully,
Excel is the greatest blessing of the Valar, but I definitely invested more
time into this than I should have. Averaging all of these Expected Wounds
tallies and dividing by 0.225 gave me scores between 0 and 10 for Hero-Slaying,
to which I could then add or subtract modifiers not adequately captured by the
model. For all criteria, these modifiers were the most subjective aspect, but
I’ve tried to adequately justify them wherever they arise.
Durability, thankfully, was easy enough to work out with the
spreadsheet I had already created. I simply worked out
the average number of turns that a hero would survive against the Uruks or
Shagrat (assuming they charge every second turn, and Strike up with an ordinary
level of success) and averaged these. This doesn’t take into account killing
power, but does include their chance of winning the duel roll, so fragile but
skilled heroes like Thandruil could still do okay. It also, unlike Tiberius’
model, took into account Wounds, not just Fate and Defence, which I think made it a bit more well-rounded. I chose to ignore Shagrat’s Shield of Cirith
Ungol, because it would basically just dunk on foot heroes harder than was fair
and none of them (as will be discussed below) were really in contention anyway.
I did award all foot heroes a -0.5 to their final score, however, to account
for how much easier they are to run down with cavalry than mounted heroes. With
everyone’s Expected Rounds Survived divided by 4, I had the final ‘objective’
score sorted.
I used a composite test to determine Mobility, with points
on offer for 3 sub-categories. A model could receive up to 7 points for how
fast they could move, up to two for Resisting magic and a single point for not
being bothered by Terror tests (which basically everyone got, although it will
be relevant for the Evil models). I also awarded up to 0.5 bonus points for
things like Terror that help models pick their fights.
The Buffs category, unfortunately, is very difficult to make objective. There’s no particularly good mathematical way to compare Elendil’s Resistant to Magic bubble to Boromir’s Banner effect, for example. Indeed, purely objective approaches like Tiberius’ can end up ranking those two Buffs equally, which clearly doesn’t reflect the value they bring to the table. To that end, I’ve basically worked off Rythbryt’s semi-subjective approach and set some markers on a scale from 1-10— i.e. a Stand Fast is 1-2 points, an okay Buff like a war horn effect is 4-5, and a 6” banner effect is a 7. Heroes fitted in to this scale next to whatever Buffs seemed equivalent to theirs. I chose to include pretty much every applicable Buff, from unit upgrades like Hearthguard, to magical aura effects or the free Heroic Moves of Aragorn or Helm. If it made the rest of the army better, it was going in.
Finally, I like Cost as a quite objective measure, worked
out mathematically by sliding heroes into slots on a table. I didn’t look at
efficiency or cost-effectiveness here, as any expensive hero that is
cost-effective will inevitably end up with good scores everywhere else. Aragorn
Elessar deserves his 3 here because he’s the most expensive Good hero and
that’s why he’s not often included, even though he’s absolutely amazing at
everything. Doing this mathematically like Tiberius did also helped eliminate a
bit of subjectivity, which is always nice. I contemplated including how easy
the model is to fit into a force (i.e. do they need a restrictive Legendary
Legion to be worthwhile, or can they ally into whatever force strikes their
fancy), but realised that this would rapidly start to get messy unless I
literally just targeted Legendary Legion characters and no one else. So Helm
got a -1 here to reflect the inefficiencies he imposes on the rest of your
force, while almost everyone else got off scot free.
With all of that worked out and my spreadsheet built, I was
ready to dive into the characters. I evaluated about 20 characters, picked from
a careful sweep of all available source material, then ranked them from 1-10. I decided that the Champions of Erebor on Chariot didn't really count, because they're less a model and more an army, but otherwise I just tested anyone who looked like they had a decent chance of a top 10 finish. However, before we jump into the models who did well here, We Need to Talk About the
Horses. As Tiberius found, attempting to weight heroes mathematically is
inevitably going to see mounted heroes rise to the top of the pool. While assuming they only charged every second turn helped, this
is still the case here, with the top unmounted model (except for Gwaihir, who hardly
counts) sitting all the way down at number 17! That’s honestly not great at
all, and while I wish I could blame this on my model, I actually think it’s
just a product of how the game works at the moment. Mount options are incredibly powerful, and lacking one makes you nearly dead in the water. My
model is unduly kind to mounted models in some areas and unfairly harsh in
others, but the real reason it ranks them highly is just that they’re good
at killing things and foot heroes aren’t. I’m obviously not a fan of this, but
I’ve gotta rate the game that exists, not the one I want.
Speaking of accepting reality, I’ve also made a deliberate effort not to rearrange these rankings at all to fit my own beliefs. I even made sure not to tally up scores until I decided how much every bonus should be worth, so I didn’t know the scores of any contestant until I’d already locked them in. I made a few exceptions where I had literally gotten a rule wrong at first ranking, but otherwise these numbers are totally unadjusted for taste. I personally think a few of the high-ranked models deserve to be lower, and vice versa for others lower down. The characters in slots 6 and 2 are going to be particularly controversial selections, I think. But the spreadsheet has spoken, and that is the order I have used for my rankings, even when it made me grit my teeth to do so. Now, without further ado, let’s jump right in to our first Honourable Mention.
Honourable Mention: Durin (5.0375)
While Durin’s tragically low score put characters like
Thorin, Gwaihir and Glorfindel ahead of him, he gets an Honourable Mention slot
purely because he’s our highest-ranked foot character at number 17. That wasn’t
because of his damage output; he was sitting on 2.75/10 for both Hero- and
Troop-Slaying thanks to no Knockdown or Extra Attack. Nor was it because of his
appalling Mobility, nor his okay Buffs and middling Cost. No, Durin tops out
our footsloggers and even thrashes heroes like Treebeard and Béorn because he
is the single most durable Good model around (save maybe Thror). As it turns
out, Defence 9 is really good. Huh. It’s also specifically much better than D8,
which shouldn’t surprise anyone who knows their To-Wound table. Durin doesn’t
do as much as a mounted hero, but this Dwarf is as solid as it comes.
Honourable Mention: Éomer, Marshall of the Riddermark (5.675)
I tried hard to rank Éomer higher, I really did. His profile
by itself was quite unimpressive, sitting him down barely above Durin at 16. I
borrowed Rythbryt’s trick of putting him in his own Legendary Legion so he gets
a neat auric Buff, but I couldn’t give him more than a 5 for a boost that only
applies when charging, and putting him in his Legendary Legion lowered his Cost
score as well. His Mobility score got dragged up substantially by having
Horselord and 3 Fate, while his throwing spear added a little to both offensive
scores. But in the end, he fell down on lacking any sort of combat boost (aside
from the very conditional ‘bonus’ when his family are dying) and because F5
means he will often need to Strike against elite infantry and captains. Ultimately,
Éomer just isn’t in the top tier of Slayers.
Honourable Mention: Bard the Bowman (5.85)
After long thought, I decided to include the bonuses Bard
gets from having his daughters and Alfrid around, even though I wasn’t
accounting for other buffing models. The reasoning behind this was that those
three models are frequently included for the sole purpose of powering up Bard,
and are basically just considered to be an extension of his cost. It was a very
different scenario from letting Círdan cast Enchanted Blades on Gil-galad, for
example, because Círdan is clearly not being purchased just to do that, whereas
Alfrid and the girls are basically only along to boost Bard. So I included them
in his Cost and gave him the benefit of free Heroic Combats, F6 and some extra
Might. The latter was spent on bonuses to Wound in my model, so he effectively
got treated as S6. That’s probably an inefficient use for them, but it was
easier to calculate than the alternatives. He also got some bonuses from his
excellent archery, and his incredible auric Buffs gave him an easy 10 there.
However, I reduced both his Durability and Mobility substantially to account
for his being tethered to fragile, footslogging models and tendency to go
haring off after their killer if they die. That all combined to give him a
respectable score of 5.85, enough to put him on the list and tied with our next
contestant for 10th. However, I made the deciding call against Bard
in the end, primarily because no one else on this list is as reliant on buffing
characters to succeed. As such, Bard merely gets to be the best Honourable
Mention. Instead, the Number 10 spot goes to…
Number 10: Dwalin, Champion of Erebor (5.85)
Surprised to see Dwalin already? Well, so was I, given how
hard he can hit. Unfortunately, his issue turned out to be that that’s all he's really good for: he died surprisingly fast to the Uruks, he’s pretty slow, and he
doesn’t have any real Buffs. Sure, he’s cheap, and he does hit very hard
with Burly, The King’s Axeman, and Du Bekhâr! But he needed a little more to
elevate him above the competition, which was extremely tight even this far
down. Most other models on this list can hit hard AND give you Buffs that reshape how your army plays. Dwalin, on the other hand, isn't really good for anything other than hitting stuff hard. As it turned out, actually left him quite a way behind our next contestant, who has mastered the art of telling those around him to hit harder...
Number 9: Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth (6.4375)
Number 8: Thandruil, King of the Woodland Realm (6.45)
Number 7: Dáin Ironfoot, Lord of the Iron Hills (6.5875)
Number 6: Radagast the Brown (6.6)
I admit, this one really threw me. Talk about a dark horse (brown... rabbit, I guess)! I had initially decided to run Radagast through the spreadsheet just for laughs, because obviously he’s not a Slayer, even on his Sleigh with Sebastian. But it turns out that when you throw enough rabbits— and thus enough Attacks— at a problem, it tends to go away. When those problems are three Uruk-hai Warriors, he ends up a shockingly efficient Troop-Slayer who could still survive reasonably well in combat thanks to Heroic Defence, 5 Attacks (all bar one at S4!) and his magical arsenal of Renew, Nature's Wrath and Immobilise. Those latter two spells and Monstrous Charge also boosted his offence quite well, as they gave him great options for dealing with cavalry and F5 heroes. He's got absolutely top-tier Buffs with Aura of Dismay, Nature's Wrath and Renew, and even Panic Steed or Immobilise can be huge boosts to the rest of your force. Added to his solid Mobility, discounted 1.25 points for his huge base size, and he actually ended up with a great score. It’s possible that I’ve overvalued Radagast’s magic here, but Aura of Dismay really can’t be much less than a 10 for Buffs on its own. Radagast, to my utmost surprise, is a genuine Slayer.
Now that that controversial call is out of the way, hopefully the spreadsheet will have given me nice defensible rankings to write up for the remaining 5 heroes.
Number 5: Elendil, High King of Gondor and Arnor (6.775)
Number 4: Boromir, Captain of the White Tower (6.7875)
Thankfully, it’s a great day to live in the city he founded, as Boromir surges unexpectedly high up the list. I gave him the Banner of Minas Tirith because it did best on my modelling, and boosted his score against the Uruks with the Horn of Gondor. The main difficulty came with trying to take into account his excellent Might value. In the end I decided to basically treat it as +1 to Wound, but also gave him a small boost to his offensive scores to reflect his capacity to keep calling Heroic Actions like Strike longer than almost anyone, as well as his capacity to blow it all on one massive turn if need be. His massive Might store also played a little into his Mobility and, through Heroic Defence, his Durability as well. Most importantly, his Banner is the gold standard for auric Buffs, and his excellent defensive stats means that his Durability is extremely good. It is these two criteria that let him even the odds against Elendil and pull ever so slightly ahead. It’s an extremely close race between these two— as between everyone from Number 9 to Number 3— and you could legitimately justify reversing this. But for me, I think I’m going to go with the spreadsheet. My modelling of Heroic Combats is probably closer to being too generous than too harsh, so a second go at comparing these two models would probably see Elendil fall a little and the gap increased. I also didn't take into account the Durability benefits Boromir gets from his Horn, so he could probably rise a small amount. However, even with that boost, Boromir would still lose to our next challenger…
Number 3: Gil-galad, High King of the Elves (6.8125)
Unless you’re running Camels or Chariots, to do damage you’ve gotta win the duel. And who do you turn to when you really, really want to win the duel? Gil-galad’s your man (well, Elf). F9 is just a whole different ballgame to every other hero, allowing him to win a huge number of duels without even Striking, and guaranteeing him F10 with an Elven-made spear if he does. I ended up deciding that he would Strike here, because there’s otherwise a decent chance that he just loses on Fight value and gets dismounted. However, I gave him a bonus to reflect the fact that he doesn’t really need to and another for having Blood and Glory to keep his Might topped up. His +1 to Wound and Lord of the West really power up his offensive power, while his D8 and reliable duel wins make him quite Durable. His Buffs aren’t amazing, as you need to pay extra for those King’s Guard and F6 is a less significant boost than the F4/5 that our next contestant allows for free. But in the end, it was his extra bit of damage, coupled with relatively respectable scores for Durability and Buffs that saw him hold off Boromir to claim the Number 3 slot he deserves. But hang on, if we’ve already seen Elendil and Gil-galad, and Aragorn is presumably Number 1, who’s Number 2? Wait…
Number 2: Helm Hammerhand (8)
Now we deserve some controversy. Not only is Helm Number 2, he’s actually decisively ahead of Number 3, and right on Aragorn’s heels for Number 1. So how does he do it? How does he beat out the two High Kings who defeated no less a foe than the Dark Lord? He does it because he’s bonkers good at hitting things hard. S5 and Burly is already excellent, and against troops in particular will normally be at least as good as Anduril. Add to that his free Heroic Combats and free Might point per turn and you have an absolute monster. I chose to use the free Might point as yet another +1 to-Wound, but also gave him a small bonus to reflect that being pretty much the least efficient way to use it. Meanwhile, his free Heroic Combats stacked on top of that damage output to give Helm the lead for Troop-Slaying by a massive 2.75 points! He’s almost as bonkers against heroes thanks to his incredible hitting power and endless Heroic Strikes, even once I denied him any bonus for Bolging and downgraded him substantially for having F5 in a world where Elves exist. His Mobility and Buffs are also both excellent, with free Heroics making him amazing at getting where he wants to be and +1 Fight plus a warhorn being generically excellent. Sure, his Cost is pretty high, and he’s not that Durable (although endless Heroic Defence certainly helps), but this guy is so absurdly good at killing things that I think he deserves this slot. In fact, I think I’ve been quite harsh on him, with things like the Legendary Legion tax in Cost almost exclusively targeting the Rohan heroes. Yet for all that he’s still miles ahead of Number 3, and terrifyingly close to the position of overall winner. Thankfully, I didn’t have to be that controversial, and the top spot (narrowly) goes to…
Number 1: Aragorn, King Elessar (8.0125)
This guy rules the Number 1 slot like he was born to it, and honestly, he kind of was. His free Might point got treated as free Heroic Combats against the Uruks and as +1 to-Wound against Shagrat, and in both cases it let him do crazy things. Well, that and his magic sword that lets him Wound people on 4’s. That also helped. His capacity to Bolg for free against a huge amount of enemy heroes is excellent, and helped propel him 2 points clear of the next best Hero-Slayer (Helm). His Durability is incredible, with 3 Wounds/Fate backed by free Heroic Defence making him ridiculously tough. Mobility is always gonna be strong on a model with an armoured horse, Horselord with 3 Fate, and free Heroic Moves/Marches/Combats. And while he’s not as amazing at Buffing as Boromir, he’s still got a 6” banner that affects everyone, himself included, and he can call free Heroic Marches and Moves. That’s undeniably strong. Cost is obviously a weakpoint, but on a profile like this that’s inevitable. He is far and away the most well-rounded model on the list, and he was always going to win. In saying that, I did not expect the top 2 to be as close as they were. If I ranked either of these two literally one point differently on anything, Helm would have taken it. I don’t think he would have deserved it, but I wouldn’t have said he deserved Number 2 either, and here we are. As is usual for these lists, I’ve managed to end on as controversial a note as I started!
If I were to redo this process (which I probably won’t, because it was somewhat gruelling) I think I would make the effort to average Wounds inflicted against several different warriors and heroes. In particular, I think that comparing against someone like Amdûr or Elrond as well would have been a good test for how well heroes can take on excellent duellists as well as pummel particularly vicious Orcs. It wouldn’t be crazily hard work, but it would involve literally duplicating almost every sheet and programming an even greater number of cross-sheet formulae; that feels like probably a holiday project to me. Were I to do so, I imagine it would improve the Hero-Slaying status of some models like Gil-galad, and make life trickier for people like Helm who are just really good at Wounding when they win the fight. Honestly though, that probably wouldn’t be enough to knock Helm off his spot. Sorting out a better system for Heroic Combats could do so, however, as I wasn’t fully happy with how they worked in this model. I’m just not really sure what that would involve, aside from some truly systematic and suis generis modelling. That sounds like a lot more than a holiday project.
In the absence of either of those changes, I’d love to hear
your thoughts. Have I missed the critical reason why Radagast just can’t be on
this list? Is my whole model systematically flawed? Is Helm actually trash and
only a trash player would recommend him? Let me know down below or on Facebook.
And keep an eye out for another monstrous article applying this structure to
the Forces of Evil.
Until then, may your favourite heroes always score highly on
internet tier lists!
Great job, as always! Thx!
ReplyDeleteA great article - I totally agree that eventually you say, "I could change this, but it takes too long to redo and I'm done with this project." :) I'm not surprised at how well Helm ranked, to be honest - Mighty Hero is an advantage, even if F5 sets him below your expected results "on paper." Not sure I'd put Dain as low as he was (seems like he'd be as good a troop killer as Helm with +1FV, same Strength/Burly, same Attacks, potentially Master of Battle for free Combats), but he gets a 5 while Helm gets a 10/11? All he's missing is Mighty Hero, which "could" be used to boost a roll, but more likely was used to get a Heroic Move instead . . . which Dain may get for free.
ReplyDeleteI think at some point I'll come back to this model to generalise it a bit, as I think the Striking/charging averaging in particular would be a really useful way to test who will win in a fight between two models. And once I'd done that, it really wouldn't be THAT much work to average across a handful of different opponents. But as you say, I've got strong 'it's done, let it rest' vibes at the moment.
DeleteI think that there are a few key distinctions between Helm and Dain against troops. The biggest one is the free Heroic Combats. Yes, Dain can theoretically get them if enemies nearby call Heroic Combats, but that's only a 50% chance, and they can always just... not. It's a common response to Master of Battle models to just not call Heroic actions nearby. That admittedly is a pretty good Buff to the rest of your force, which I did take into account, but I just am not really sure that you're going to get lots of Heroic Combats out of it. It obviously gives him free Heroic Strikes when taking on heroes, which I gave him a full +1 to hero-killing for, but I don't see it as that big of a benefit for Troop-Slaying. So while Dain gets lots of benefits to his score from that rule, I didn't model him with free Heroic Combats, which Helm absolutely gets every turn.
As far as Mighty Hero goes, you're right that you're often going to want to use it for other things. But if you needed to call that Heroic Move, you would probably have still done it if you didn't have Mighty Hero, so Helm is still net +1 Might which he can spend on +1 to Wound. Honestly, it barely impacts his score against troops anyway, but it seemed like I had to take it into account somewhere. If I was willing to put in more effort, I'd have used it on his duel rolls instead, which would have made a big difference. But that was just one step too far to model a special rule only two heroes get, so I decided to just go for the easy option instead. +1 to Wound isn't an especially efficient use of the Might, but I felt like he needed at least some benefit from this objectively very powerful special rule that will boost his killing power a lot.
You are also right that Dain can get Heroic Moves for free (or not need to call them in the first place, which is arguably even better), but I took that into account for Buffs for him. I honestly could be convinced I undervalued him on Buffs tbh, but I wasn't convinced his Buffs were better than Thror's, for example, who I'd put at 7/10.
I am surprised Glorfindel is nowhere on the list, considering his armor of Gondolin (incredible powerful against monsters), his exceptionally fast horse (+ horse-lord and all), his fight value, terror, Lord of the west and him being almost untouchable to magic? And another thing surprised me - how can possibly Aragorn's banner effect affect himself as well? That is just ridiculous! I understand, that a banner-man is influenced by his banner (the filling of pride or importance or something), but that Aragorn is affected by himself is just ... well, better not say it. Just ridiculous!
ReplyDeleteOther than that - that is some superb work, superb indeed! Congrats! And thank you.
He actually did quite well really, and ended up on 13th overall, so he really wasn't far from the cut. You're absolutely right that all of those factors gave him a few great scores, like a 10 for Mobility and the highest Durability score after Durin.
DeleteUnfortunately he was always going to be a bit hamstrung by his killing power; he can win fights easily enough, but he's only S4 with no bonuses (except the reroll) to Wound, and against a D7 hero like Shagrat he basically bounces off. He also has no real Buffs to the rest of his force, and he's still relatively expensive.
In comparison to Dwalin, for example, he's tougher and moves faster, but hits a lot less hard and is more expensive. I love Glorfindel, but I don't really see how he can make the top 10. He'd probably improve if I tested the heroes against people like Amdur as well as Shagrat, where his F7 would matter more, but he still wouldn't be killing anyone particularly fast.
I do agree that it's a bit big-headed of Aragorn, but I just take it as him being really inspired by his mission to save Frodo. That's why he gets the banner rerolls, and everyone else is inspired by him. Still a bit weird, but that's my best guess.
Glad you enjoyed!
I am late to the party on this, but enjoyed reading this a lot. Once you take the champs chariot out of the equation (which, to be fair, poses the same issues on the good side as Smaug poses on the evil side--they're designed to basically be 75% or more of an army on their own, so of course they're going to be substantially better than models that cost much less than they do), I think your top-5 is perfectly defensible.
ReplyDeletePart of the difficulty in doing rankings like this is that rankings may look one way on paper, but the performance on the table can be quite a bit better (or worse) than you expect. (From my own personal experience, Gwaihir is a prime example of that--he looks worse than Beorn and Treebeard, with lower Strength and fewer attacks, but once you get him on the table, he's at least as good as they are, for fewer points, and some things he actually does better than they do.)
My own limited experiments with Radagast is that he may fall within the same category, especially on sleigh: 5 attacks on the charge (6 with Sebastian) is really, really good, and in theory, you have the Immobilize to deal with higher fight heroes if you need to. But magic resistance is by definition pretty swingy (especially against heroes: if they roll a "6" to resist, there's nothing you can do to stop it), and of course, even an immobilized F6 hero is going to win duel ties, unless you spend Might to channel. The Eagle fixes that for most heroes (F7 vs. F6), and is quite a bit more maneuverable (much smaller base, plus Fly), but it's quite a bit more fragile. And of course, Immobilize is on a timer at that point, unless there's another model who can regenerate Radagast's Will (like Gandalf or Bombur).
All that said, I do agree with Durin and Eomer being at the bottom of this particular grouping. Durin is awesome, as is Eomer, but in the end, the lack of a mount / lack of F6 with a +1 to-wound holds them back compared to everyone else. But this is a really elite group, so there's no shame in being on this list, even if it's slightly lower than others.
The big difficulty that I found with the Chariot was that they were too absurdly good at killing to fit within my scale in a meaningful way. Their Average Number of Uruks killed number would be totally meaningless, because it would be way higher than the number you'd actually be facing at one time, and even their Wounds Inflicted on Shagrat score would probably be some ridiculous overkill. They'd end up with ridiculously huge numbers for both killing stats, which would then get rounded down to 10, and pretty low scores for most everything else. So then I'd end up having to put them in a really unrepresentative place on the list, which would have just been annoying. Far easier just t ignore them, I thought.
DeleteFor what it's worth, my model actually puts Gwaihir way above Beorn and Treebeard, and I totally agree that he's a lot better of a model. A model like this is always going to be a little hard for him, as a lot of his appeal is his flexibility, but he still did fairly well on it. The two Attacks really did let him down though, as I was assuming he was charged every second turn and he really struggles to do damage on those turns. Still an awesome little monster, but I think he's more of a utility piece than a straight Slayer in some respects.
You're absolutely right that Radagast has a lot of issues, but I actually think this model was a bit harsh on him in many respects. Importantly, I didn't assume that Shagrat was Immobilised, because (as you point out) it's just too swingy a factor to count on, nor that the Uruks had been hit by Nature's Wrath. This meant Shagrat got to make Strikes if he won and call a Heroic Strike for the Fight value edge, both huge factors I totally ignored. In fact, for the offensive scores I basically ignored his magic except to give him +0.125 for Troop-Slaying and +0.25 for Hero-Slaying. Honestly, that latter boost is probably too small for it really, given that he can dismount heroes with Panic Steed or Nature's Wrath, and that an Immobilised hero is absolutely terrified of his charge.
Where I did give him big boosts from his magic was Durability (because Renew, Immobilise and Nature's Wrath all make him so much more resilient than you'd expect, and Renew doesn't even rely on them failing Resist tests) and Buffs (because Aura of Dismay, Nature's Wrath and Renew are all massive boosts to a battleline). Both of those made big differences to his score, but I thought that that was fairly reasonable. I was basically assuming that he'd cast Aura of Dismay on the march into combat, then either Nature's Wrath or Renew every turn he didn't get charged first. That should make a huge difference to his allies and his own resilience, at least in theory. I've only used him on the Sleigh a couple of times, so I could be overestimating that, but the Buffs at least are largely just based on Aura of Dismay. That spell absolutely rocks.
As ever, I'm deeply saddened by how poorly foot heroes/monsters do on these scales. Durin should be so awesome, but he's just never going to kill enough stuff to make it above the number 17 slot. If this game ever gets another edition, the balancing of foot/mounted heroes is where I'd like to see the big changes